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How would you handle this: Counterfit Colorado Gruber $10 Sold by a Major Dealer

mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am 3 levels away from this, and have no skin in the game.

One of my relatives is a financial advisor. He has a client who is advanced in years, and is wanting him to market his coin collection. My relative knows nothing about coins, and contacted me, somehow convinced I know something about coins (none to less than none). Some of them were at least decent, so I showed him PCGS, what a slabbed and graded coin involved. They decided to send in 8 of them, as a trial.

Here are some of the grades:

1889-P Morgan MS66
1890 Half: PR63CAM
1875-S Trade Dollar: MS62
1890-O Morgan: MS63
1907 $5 Gold: MS64
1889-S Morgan: Body Bagged Cleaning

Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.

All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.

What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
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Comments

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,232 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>



    No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    dealer, then lawyer.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>



    No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>



    Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one.
  • MarkMark Posts: 3,534 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As amwldcoin said, 30 years is a long time. For what it's worth, the ANA code of ethics for dealers says that "However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine ..." which I read to infer that there is no time limit for returning a counterfeit coin. Of course, good luck in trying to do so because I expect the dealer will surely claim that the counterfeit is not the coin he or she sold to the client...
    Mark


  • TomthecoinguyTomthecoinguy Posts: 849 ✭✭✭✭
    Any reputable dealer should return a counterfeit coin, no matter how long it takes to discover. You should ask the dealer nicely, and don't start planning what you are going to do if he says no, until he says no. I'm hoping it never comes to that.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>



    No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>



    Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one. >>



    Does the original paperwork say Gem BU? If it does, what are the chances of one Gem BU Territorial being exchanged for another?
  • SAM5969SAM5969 Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭
    as already stated - two huge hurdles:

    Burden of proof
    Statute of limitations

    Is the dealer still in business under the same entity?
    imageimage
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>as already stated - two huge hurdles:

    Burden of proof
    Statute of limitations

    Is the dealer still in business under the same entity? >>



    Another potentially huge hurdle?

    Dealer doing the right thing
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,085 ✭✭✭
    Is it possible the coin was considered genuine at the time it was sold, but further research has concluded the coins are counterfeit? I don't recall the issue, but PCGS has paid out large amounts of money under their authenticity guarantee for coins they certified as genuine which were later proved counterfeit. I remember it being a territorial.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,387 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>
    Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.

    All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.

    What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
    Text >>


    30 years and receipts only? You would have to prove intent to defraud and even more difficult - that coin was the same as bought.

    Money is lost IMO - I am sorry. Maybe the dealer would make the buyer whole, but that is just getting your hopes up.

    Tyler
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    I do not see a happy ending here and just an example of why I have never put any faith is a warranty from a dealer covering a fake coin after the sale. Proving it is the same coin should not be any harder than the dealer claiming it is a different coin.
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>
    Here is the major issue: There was a $10 Colorado Gruber $10 coin. It was sold as a Gem BU coin. The client has the original paperwork, date, price paid, sales person's name, etc. I have never seen any of the coins, but the pictures of the $10 gold did not look right. The sale was 30 years ago +/-. This was the WHALE in the collection, and he paid appropriately for a whale coin. It just came back from PCGS as counterfeit. MS62 is $87,500 and MS63 is $115,000.

    All the coins were sold as high end investment, yada yada. They were all sold as GEM BU, etc. So he is taking a bath.

    What, if any, advice would you give on any action. The dealer is very much active, and caters to a high end clientele.
    Text >>


    30 years and receipts only? You would have to prove intent to defraud and even more difficult - that coin was the same as bought.

    Money is lost IMO - I am sorry. Maybe the dealer would make the buyer whole, but that is just getting your hopes up.

    Tyler >>



    If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.

    Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't.
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    If the dealer balks on the coin call Legend and let Laura take charge for you.image
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I do not see a happy ending here and just an example of why I have never put any faith is a warranty from a dealer covering a fake coin after the sale. Proving it is the same coin should not be any harder than the dealer claiming it is a different coin. >>



    If the dealer is active and caters to high end clientele as mentioned, why would you not expect a happy ending?

    Don't high end clientele expect high end service from high end dealers?
  • LotsoLuckLotsoLuck Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭
    Let the usual suspects torch the dealer in this thread and wait to see if said dealer esplains themselves.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,079 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>



    What he says.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • You could always take the coin and the receipt to the dealer and ask them to give you a current market value on the coin for updating a will. If the dealer then acknowledges the sale, the coin, doing business with the client etc, then after verifying if a PNG dealer and or guarantee discuss PCGSs determination of the coin. A little bit shady but it would most likely stop litigation. I would suggest recording the conversation but make sure what the law is regarding it as most states just one party needs to know about the recording. You get the idea get valadation of that coin being the one sold. Also submit to ngc and see if it bags, people make mistakes of which we have seen quite a few lately.
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i like the idea of taking it to the dealer and asking them to grade/appraise it now that 30 years have past. see if they acknowledge the coin is the same coin...then disclosure.
  • HalfStrikeHalfStrike Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭
    I think they would only be liable for the original cost, not replacement value. But may be the laws are different on that.
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey, if we're going to cover all of the bases....(though I hesitate to bring this up)....It COULD be that PCGS is wrong, and it's a legit coin??

    (I'll sit out my suspension quietly). image
    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,319 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It might not hurt to contact PCGS and see if they can provide more information on the counterfeit and the known history of the type including when and why PCGS declared the type to be counterfeit.

    It is sad to see these "investment" coins still causing trouble all these years later.

    Follow MrEureka's advice.

    You may also want to check and see if the dealer was ever involved in a lawsuit regarding the "investment" coins he sold back in the 1970's and 80's. This could provide some good background info. (Several big name, still active dealers were involved in such suits.)

    Don't get yourself too deeply into this. It could get very messy and expensive. This isn't your problem. Don't do anything that makes it your problem.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • TopdollarpaidTopdollarpaid Posts: 599 ✭✭✭
    Hold on here

    The dealer will remember such a coin.
    Approach him with respect, don't start off thinking bad of him.
    Most likely did not know it was fake and will return the invested money.

    Have some faith in the dealer.
    30 years ago he was probably just learning.

    I say give the dealer a fair chance, why assume that he will say its not the coin he sold,
    If he does not play fair then figure out your next step.

    Randy Conway
    Randy Conway

    Www.killermarbles.com

    Www.suncitycoin.com
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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would give the dealer a chance to do the right thing. If the dealer refuses to rectify the situation, he should be outed here.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,073 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>



    No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>



    Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one. >>



    Does the original paperwork say Gem BU? If it does, what are the chances of one Gem BU Territorial being exchanged for another? >>



    I would say it's close to zero chance that someone switched an extremely rare coin with an identical high quality fake of the same high grade and type.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,376 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since the highest graded CG Mountain $10 at PCGS is MS63, I would love to see a Gem BU one. The 1861 CG "Liberty" $10 would be even more special, highest at PCGS MS61.



    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,125 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is possible that the dealer has photographs of the coin taken when he sold it.

    image
    https://www.brianrxm.com
    The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
    Coins in Movies
    Coins on Television

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am curious what the collector paid for the coin in question 30 years ago. After all, that is, in theory, what the dealer would potentially be on the hook for. It might be a few hundred bucks and no big deal (the price of a mid-tier bottle of wine at Gibson's image ) I do not believe he would be expected to buy the coin at current market value.
  • PTVETTERPTVETTER Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    30+ years is a long time
    AND the coin was removed from the original package.
    Without the dealers knowledge. The dealer can claim that it's not the same coin.
    Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211


  • Wonder if the dealer has seen this post and if so what is he thinking right about now.
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  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,159 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Follow MrEureka's advice. From the description it reads as though it is an 1860 Clark Gruber $10. However, I expect that even the most honest dealer might be a bit leery about how this story has been relayed.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image


  • << <i>I am curious what the collector paid for the coin in question 30 years ago. After all, that is, in theory, what the dealer would potentially be on the hook for. It might be a few hundred bucks and no big deal (the price of a mid-tier bottle of wine at Gibson's image ) I do not believe he would be expected to buy the coin at current market value. >>



    I checked on this and the only Clark Gruber sold in UNC in this timeframe (as per Kimmell) was an 1860 $10 out of Bowers & Merena in 6/1984 lot 3959 for $13,750 as MS60. The highest graded 1861 $10's around this time were multiple XF pieces selling for ~$2500.
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think it all depends on who the dealer is, and also if the coin is in the original packaging.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this coin in Western Colorado?

    Please turn your PM on.

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    several good points.

    pcgs may have made a mistake. you could resub and ask for notes, if they will give them.
    things were different back then and it may not have been considered a counterfeit. info back then was via seeing, speaking and reading texts.

    and RYK has a greatpoint that this might have only been a few hundred(or maybe in the $1000 range if that? (I'm thinking over price of gold and if this was purchased in the gold run up....). All the dealer is on the hook for is the sales value, no more.


    I also wonder the value of gold content now versus sales value then. (since I have no idea what such a coin would sell for then)




    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,319 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>There are so many holes in this story that it floats. >>



    Actually, as someone who was an active collector during this period, the story sounds as if it is quite true.

    Circa 1981 I was contacted by an "investment advisor" who had heard I had an interest in coins. I thought it would be interesting to hear his pitch. He was not aware that I had been an active collector for twenty years by that time and probably thought I was just another investor type. What he was offering was an investment package of coins from a very well known dealer who is still very active in 2014.

    I played the role of bumpkin as I wanted to hear his entire pitch. I then started asking a few questions that required some knowledge of the field and not just what was on his investment script pitch. Essentially, I ripped his entire pitch apart (and enjoyed doing so). Needless to say, I didn't buy anything from him.

    Moving forward to the early 1990's, I was contacted by one of my co-workers in our central office. He knew I was a coin collector and asked if I would look over the "investment" he had made in Morgan dollars a few years earlier. On my next trip into the central office he had them waiting for me. He had paid $350 to $500 each for these "investment" coins. I had to break the news to him that they were worth perhaps 1/10th what he had paid for them.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    after 30 years a lot can happen or be done, I can see no good resolution. I would assume that there HAS to be some sort of statute-of-limitations in place with Murder, War Crimes and Kidnapping being about the only things that are perpetual. it is odd that more responses tend to think the dealer and PCGS did something wrong but most everyone presumes that since this investor has some paperwork they are above reproach.

    logic tells me that it is a lost cause and unenforceable.
  • GreeniejrGreeniejr Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
    Maybe one of the lawyers here can comment but I am pretty sure that title does not pass on counterfeit items meaning that there can be no statute of limitations. In the world of ancients it happens that a coin is recognized for a hundred years as genuine with important pedigrees but new discoveries provide info to prove it counterfeit. Even in those cases and even after 20+ years, the dealer has to make good.
  • TookybanditTookybandit Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭✭
    Very expensive tuition at the school of hard knocks! Absolutely awful situation to be in for sure. PCGS started in 1985 almost 30 years ago. Too bad it wasn't slabbed way back then before the transaction with the current owner took place. I do not know if PCGS was slabbing territorial gold at the time?

    My unslabbed purchase threshold is approx. $300 on coins. 7yrs. ago (I think) there was a raw gold coin advertised as AU on eBay for $2200. I messaged the seller and wanted to buy the coin. I asked them if they would be willing to send it off to be graded, I would then purchase the coin at their full asking price and pay for all their grading/shipping fees provided it graded as a true AU without a net/details grade (Body bag at the time). They did, it did, and I bought it! ....a little healthy paranoia goes along way! image
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭✭
    While I don't doubt the story in the OP, and would follow Mr. Eureka's advice to start, I'm not sure I see a positive resolution for the coin's owner.

    Put yourself in the dealer's shoes. With the coin out of the original holder/flip/2x2, would you believe a story that the coin is a fake you sold 30 years ago? How would you know it was the same coin? Unless there is really good photographic evidence, I think guarantees are tough to enforce once the coin is removed from original packaging and can no longer be certain that it is the same coin.
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are you sure it is a "$10" ?

    Years ago there were some 1861 $20 "die 2" specimens that were highly-graded. PCGS even certified some.
    Then later it was determined that these were modern fakes, possibly perpetrated by J. Ford. Now they are listed as "fantasies".
    The original (genuine) Die 1 1861 $20 are easy to tell apart from the fakes.

    Can you post pictures of it here ?
  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>The owner of the coin should contact the dealer. If the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, then it's time to contact either an attorney or - if the dealer is a member - the PNG. >>



    No question this is the proper chain of command. 30 years is a long time. Probably be a tough case. Never heard of a Gem BU Territorial though. Hope the coin wasn't switched....which would be the 1st thing that would have to be defended. >>



    Yeah, Since it wasn't holdered, who's to say a family member didn't switch the coin for a fake. Going to be tough to hold a Dealer's feet to the fire on this one. >>



    Best answer.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.

    Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't. >>




    The list of crooked dealers or ones selling way over-graded coins during the 1970-1986 period is very long. A lot of those same dealers are considered "luminaries"....some have even won numismatic awards. While the publicity won't help them, I doubt they would do anything after such a long period of time. How many "gem BU" $10 territorials has a typical dealer handled over their lifetime.....probably 0 for 99.9% of them. There should be no expiration for selling counterfeits. The hard part is proving it's the same coin unless it's an ex-auction or ex-catalog coin that was prominently photographed at one time. Short of that, their word against yours. I suspect this dealer will staunchly defend their "good reputation" and sick their lawyers after you if you post anything negative about them here by "name." They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong.

    wow.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,075 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.

    Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't. >>




    The list of crooked dealers or ones selling way over-graded coins during the 1970-1986 period is very long. A lot of those same dealers are considered "luminaries"....some have even won numismatic awards. While the publicity won't help them, I doubt they would do anything after such a long period of time. How many "gem BU" $10 territorials has a typical dealer handled over their lifetime.....probably 0 for 99.9% of them. There should be no expiration for selling counterfeits. The hard part is proving it's the same coin unless it's an ex-auction or ex-catalog coin that was prominently photographed at one time. Short of that, their word against yours. I suspect this dealer will staunchly defend their "good reputation" and sick their lawyers after you if you post anything negative about them here by "name." They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong. >>



    Don't they also have to provide some proof [other than their own denial/say so] that it isn't the same coin?
    theknowitalltroll;
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,073 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>If there hasn't been a switch, the dealer is active, caters to high end clientele, and doesn't make good, it may be worth knowing who the dealer is.

    Different dealers have different policies and it is good to understand the policies of the dealers you work with. This is similar to how some dealers buy back strong, and some don't. >>




    The list of crooked dealers or ones selling way over-graded coins during the 1970-1986 period is very long. A lot of those same dealers are considered "luminaries"....some have even won numismatic awards. While the publicity won't help them, I doubt they would do anything after such a long period of time. How many "gem BU" $10 territorials has a typical dealer handled over their lifetime.....probably 0 for 99.9% of them. There should be no expiration for selling counterfeits. The hard part is proving it's the same coin unless it's an ex-auction or ex-catalog coin that was prominently photographed at one time. Short of that, their word against yours. I suspect this dealer will staunchly defend their "good reputation" and sick their lawyers after you if you post anything negative about them here by "name." They pretty much know you probably can't provide air-tight evidence to show they did anything wrong. >>



    The person who bought this counterfeit has all the original receipts including the person in the firm that sold the fake to him so I doubt the dealer will sue anyone. Actually it's more likely this dealer will have to defend himself in a civil suit since the coin's value is high enough to get a lawyer involved. If this dealer is smart he will want to settle out of court to avoid the adverse publicity he would get once the numismatic press gets ahold of this story.


    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,075 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think it all depends on who the dealer is, and also if the coin is in the original packaging. >>



    Probably not possible since the coin was submitted to PCGS.
    theknowitalltroll;
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perhaps the dealer would have advertised the coin at some point. It might be worth tracking down old ads to see if it can be matched to a plate there, if they did think it was genuine.
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection

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